[00:05:08] Rik: Now. Now, live, now. Fantastic. Thank you. Here we are. I feel like Netflix, season one, episode three. If you didn't join us last week, what happened was Jayson Street.

That was fun. What a great interview that was. We're here, again, it's Thursday. It's some time of the day, depending on where you are. For me it's 5:00 o'clock in the afternoon.

It's around midday on the east coast of the U.S. And thank you, again, for joining us on Let's Talk Security. We're live on LinkedIn. We're live on YouTube.

We're live a couple of times on Twitter, and I'm really grateful that you're, you're joining us again. We have a, another incredible guest for you this week.

I think we're gonna have a very wide-ranging discussion.

[00:05:48] Maybe outside the realms of some of the areas of what you might consider traditional security. I think today's, discussion is going to be very people-focuses.

It might get personal. It's absolutely, going to be incredibly worthwhile, and incredibly interesting. If you've seen any of the promotional, posts or Tweets, then you will know, that I'm speaking to Katelyn Bowden from the BADASS Army, the founder, in fact, and CEO of the Bad Ass Army.

I, I first of all, I have to express how, uncomfortable it feels for me to say Bad Ass, because my natural instinct is to say, bad ass. But that doesn't work with the acronym. So I have to say BADASS.

So please join me in, in welcoming Katelyn Bowden from the BADASS Army.

[00:06:35] Katelyn: Hi.

[00:06:35] Rik: Thank you. How are you doing, Katelyn?

[00:06:37] Katelyn: I'm doing pretty good. How are you?

[00:06:40] Rik: I'm, I'm all right. I'm roastingly hot today. If you see me shining and sweating, I promise it's not nerves. We had a-

[00:06:44] Katelyn: [laughs].

[00:06:45] Rik: ... Chat yesterday, so I'm very comfortable with you now.

[00:06:47] Katelyn: [laughs].

[00:06:47] Rik: I was a bit overwrought yesterday, but we're good now. It's roastingly hot here. Great to have you on. Thank you for agreeing to come and, and talk to us.

Your story in the world of, information security, online security, that whole community, is a relatively recent one, right? The BADASS Army was founded in 2017, am I right?

[00:07:09] Katelyn: Yes. Yeah. It's- [crosstalk 00:07:27]

[00:07:10] Rik: So just what's the backstory there?

[00:07:11] Katelyn: ... Years.

[00:07:12] Rik: So what's the backstory, there?

[00:07:14] Katelyn: all right. Well, I started out in 2017. It was actually earlier in the year I had gotten a Facebook message from an acquaintance that said, "Hey, this is really awkward, but there's pictures of you on this website that I don't think you meant to have them on there."

You know, and I followed the link she gave me. And sure enough, yeah [laughs]. Some pictures I had sent to an ex-before that were obviously meant to remain private-

[00:07:38] Rik: Yeah.

[00:07:38] Katelyn: ... Were on a website. And I scroll through this website and I see other, lots of people I know. And I see that, you know, none of these women have given con- their consent to having these pictures shared.

I re- And I started realizing how big of a thing this is. This isn't just a one-off, you know, angry ex, this is whole thing.

[00:07:59] Rik: Right.

[00:07:59] Katelyn: you know, and-

[00:08:00] Rik: It's, it's a community, not just, not just a, a, a lone wolf kind of activity.

[00:08:04] Katelyn: Oh, yeah. And I went, you know, I wanted to get some justice. I wanted to figure out who did it. And I did some, I was sent, found out that someone had stolen my ex's phone.

I found out who. I had all the evidence I needed. This should be an open and shut case. Went to the police where I was told that it's totally legal in the state of Ohio to do this. It's-

[00:08:25] Rik: Wow.

[00:08:25] Katelyn: ... Totally legal to, post pictures of people without their consent, nude images, but the only crime that had been committed was the theft of the cell phone. It- [crosstalk 00:08:58]

[00:08:34] Rik: That's incredible.

[00:08:35] Katelyn: E- Well, yeah. I was livid. I was angry. I didn't wanna feel helpless anymore. I figured out how to get my own image down, thanks to a friend who works in infosec.

[00:08:45] Rik: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

[00:08:46] Katelyn: and who's also a photographer. And he helped me get my images down, taught me how to do it because as he said, "It's gonna keep on happening.

You will ... " Sure enough he was right. Well, I realized a lot of people didn't have access to that kind of resource. So I [00:09:00] started reaching out to other victims. And we just kinda decided to start brainstorming of how we can fight back.

[00:09:06] Rik: So, you-

[00:09:07] Katelyn: Yeah.

[00:09:07] Rik: I'm sure your initial reaction wasn't, "Hey, I'm gonna start BADASS Army." Right? Your initial reaction was what? Shock, panic,

[00:09:12] Katelyn: yeah. It was shock, it was panic, it was disgust. There was some shame, to a degree.

[00:09:18] Rik: Right.

[00:09:18] Katelyn: I think I've had a lot of privilege in my situation. Because I wasn't gonna lose my job. I wasn't gonna have my family disown me. I am, you know, at the time, I was 30 years old. I have two kids. Obviously, it's-

[00:09:29] Rik: Right.

[00:09:29] Katelyn: ... Not a surprise to people I have had sex.

[00:09:31] Rik: Yeah. [laughs].

[00:09:31] Katelyn: Also not somebody that puts a lot of shame in sex. But I could imagine being these younger girls that don't have that kinda privilege, you know, the ones that are going to nursing school, and-

[00:09:42] Rik: Yeah.

[00:09:42] Katelyn: ... Trying to get a job and this is out there without their consent. I can't, you know, I'm somebody that, it's not just about me, it's about how I see other people going through it. So it was originally supposed to be a Facebook group of victims, just to connect, you know-

[00:09:59] Rik: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

[00:09:59] Katelyn: ... Plan raids, not that any of them worked 'cause we didn't understand how to, you know, bypass flood,

[00:10:05] Rik: Right.

[00:10:06] Katelyn: ... Filters, things like that. And then it became a thing. We ended up getting a law passed within the first year, it make it illegal in the state of Ohio.

[00:10:14] Rik: So that was just a local state law, that, in the first year? But I mean, that's a massive achievement. But that was within the first year and it was within the state of Ohio.

[00:10:21] Katelyn: Yes. It is now criminalized in the state of Ohio. Since then, BADASSes have gone on to advocate for several different laws including a federal one.

[00:10:29] Rik: That's the one I was gonna ask you about. So I know that there is, a federal shield law in the U.S. Or a proposition for, a, a law called shield, right?

And not to be confused with the shield law that was recently passed in the state of New York which is more geared towards enterprises, and companies, and organizations, this is a federal law. Why do you need a federal one?

[00:10:49] Katelyn: We have federal- [crosstalk 00:11:20]

[00:10:49] Rik: For people not familiar with the U.S. Legal system, that might seem a bit odd if you already have state ones. Why aren't they enough?

[00:10:56] Katelyn: Well, there's a few different reasons. One is the jurisdictional issues. Most, law enforcement is not willing to go from state to state. As we know, the internet isn't just the people that are living in your neighborhood or in your-

[00:11:07] Rik: Right.

[00:11:07] Katelyn: ... City, in your state. I'll oftentimes, the victims, and their perpetrators live states apart. So those jurisdictional issues are huge.

'Cause what do you do if it's legal in one state and illegal in the other? And as well as each state has different laws. And a lot of them fall short. There is a clause in each one of the laws that says, "With intent to do harm."

[00:11:29] Rik: Okay.

[00:11:29] Katelyn: Now, i- you can't prove intent unless a person texts you and says, "I'm putting a picture on this website, you know, to hurt you."

[00:11:37] Rik: Yeah.

[00:11:37] Katelyn: You're not gonna be able to improve 10. You're not gonna be able to prove intent. So this would fill in those gaps. It would make it easier to, prosecute. It would also be much more of a deterrent to prevent this kinda behavior.

[00:11:49] Rik: Sure.

[00:11:50] Katelyn: You know, knowing that not only is the state law. 'Cause a lot of people will look at these state laws, say, "Ah, I can afford a two, $300 fine. Not a big deal."

[00:11:59] Rik: [00:12:00] Right.

[00:12:00] Katelyn: but if it's a federal law, they're looking at real time. They're, you know, there's more law enforcement available to, investigate, and catch them, and collect evidence. It's-

[00:12:10] Rik: Yeah.

[00:12:11] Katelyn: ... Something that is really, really needed. We all need to be on the same page about this.

[00:12:15] Rik: I think, maybe with a lot of cyber crime, even, you know, or particularly perhaps, the financially motivated sort of what we would call traditional cyber crime.

I think a lot of the, certainly when you look at the low level crime and low level criminals rather than the skilled groups, a lot of the motivation or the drive to carry out online crime of whatever stripe, is the notion that, "Well, no one will know it was me, anyway."

Is there a lot of that in image abuse and nonconsensual porn?

[00:12:41] Katelyn: Absolutely. Because they, law enforcement that currently would be in charge of, you know, enforcing this, these laws that we have, they don't have the time or energy to do this.

[00:12:53] Rik: Right.

[00:12:53] Katelyn: To really look it up. I'm sorry, my cat is just destroying my plant- [crosstalk 00:13:37]

[00:12:58] Rik: I can hear, yeah. I can hear that he ... Your cat rubbing himself against the microphone, right?

[00:13:02] Katelyn: No.

[00:13:02] Rik: This is- [crosstalk 00:13:44]

[00:13:03] Katelyn: He's, he's, right over here we have a doom's cat soul as we call it. [crosstalk 00:13:48]-

[00:13:07] Rik: Oh, wow. Look at that.

[00:13:09] Katelyn: Yeah. He, eh, he was climbing in a, in the blinds. He is- [crosstalk 00:13:53]

[00:13:12] Rik: He's like, "I need attention. Pay attention to me."

[00:13:14] Katelyn: He's-

[00:13:14] Rik: The joys of live streaming.

[00:13:16] Katelyn: Right? He a baby, still. So he's, getting into everything. [laughs].

[00:13:21] Rik: So, yeah. You were talking about, law enforcement. I actually had a, a question written down on my list of how, how are they doing?

Because I know from my own personal experience dealing with, law enforcement professionals when it comes to cyber crime, if you can get to the right people, there's a lot of expertise and a lot of willingness to, pursue leads.

But those right people not only for far between, they're also few. And, and obviously law enforcement have a lot of different areas to focus on, and much of the time, in my experience, anyway, they're specialism that, say, is not in cyber-related issues.

How do they deal with, with your specific area of crime that you're focused on?

[00:13:57] Katelyn: Honestly, it's, it's been rough going. Because not only are we dealing with a cyber crime that the police don't know how to handle, but they are also notoriously terrible at handling, you know, victims of sexual trauma as well.

[00:14:09] Rik: Right.

[00:14:09] Katelyn: Which we combine both. So not only are we getting, you know, that whole victim blaming mentality, sometimes, when we go to the police station.

Like in my case, the officer was like, "You should tell me the URL of these photos." And he was like joking like he was gonna look them up.

[00:14:24] Rik: Right.

[00:14:25] Katelyn: and that's a common thing. Or they say, "You shouldn't have taken those pictures if you didn't want them out there." Like this is some kind of natural consequence for sexuality.

[00:14:34] Rik: Sure.

[00:14:34] Katelyn: so we deal with that. Plus, we deal with them not understanding how to st- even start investigating these crimes. They, I've dealt with judges that have zero idea of what a VPN is, much less an IP address.

[00:14:48] Rik: Yeah.

[00:14:48] Katelyn: I've had evidence thrown out because they don't understand that an IP address, triangulated, can point to a, one specific person. They don't understand how that connection [00:15:00] works.

[00:15:00] Rik: Right.

[00:15:01] Katelyn: there is also a lack of knowledge even just about the law. We had, I mean, we've had this law in Ohio for over a year.

But we had somebody last month go report a case and were told by the police that there is no revenge porn law, that this is totally legal.

We had to send a second advocate out there just to be like, "Hey, this is the statute. This is, like, you have to enforce this."

[00:15:25] Rik: That's, that's interesting. So it, it kinda leads me on to say let's talk abl about, BADASS as an organization. On the website, it says that you, you're all about, education, advocacy, and legislation.

And you're there to support victims of revenge porn. That's kind of the, in a nutshell, the mission statement and the, the, the target group for, for BADASS, right?

So, let's talk about victims, first of all. What, how, what steps ... So if somebody finds themself in the situation that you found yourself in, what do they do next?

[00:15:58] Katelyn: the first thing I always remind victims in those moments is to breathe. It's gonna be okay. Because the first reaction is to panic.

You don't know how far it's out there, you feel incredi- you know, especially if you read the comments, which you never, ever read the comments. That's-

[00:16:12] Rik: Yeah.

[00:16:13] Katelyn: We should know better. But, you feel panicked, you feel betrayed. And you start pa- You, you start freaking out. And in those moments, it's important to breathe.

It's important to remember that this is just something that's happening and it's not permanent.

[00:16:28] Rik: Right.

[00:16:28] Katelyn: so that's the first step. The second step is to start your documenting. You wanna screenshot everything. You wanna grab the, actual images themselves, if you can.

Some websites, you know, they wipe the EXIF [inaudible 00:17:37] but a lot of them don't.

[00:16:43] Rik: Okay. So-

[00:16:43] Katelyn: So-

[00:16:43] Rik: You mean like right-click, download, save a copy, that's gonna be important evidence?

[00:16:47] Katelyn: Yes. Especially if the, if, there's still, you know, some EXIF data on there, that's-

[00:16:51] Rik: Sure. Yeah.

[00:16:51] Katelyn: Those are things that are gonna help. You wanna document everything. You want to, you know, get a list of who cau- could have possibly done it.

You wanna immediately do a Google Image search to try to find out where, e- au- everywhere that it is. 'Cause if it's on one website, there's a really good chance it's on another one.

[00:17:10] Rik: Right.

[00:17:10] Katelyn: These guys have a-

[00:17:12] Rik: Right.

[00:17:12] Katelyn: ... Tendency to save, and share, and repost. So it's, you know, you've gotta fig- you got a list of where to get it down.

[00:17:20] Rik: And-

[00:17:20] Katelyn: You definitely- [crosstalk 00:18:20]

[00:17:20] Rik: ... Does a lot of it happen in private groups? I know we- See, my, my area of exposure and expertise is in cyber crime. But in what I called earlier on the more traditional area of, you know, financially motivated cyber crime that's been around for a couple of decade.

A lot of that happens in, close forums, password protected, where members have to be vouched for by another member before they can get in. A lot of it has migrated in recent years to dark web forums.

Do you have to deal with those areas as well? And if you do, how do you do that? How d- How do you cope with the, the behavior that's more hidden?

[00:17:57] Katelyn: yeah, no, we do do, we do deal with that a lot. One thing you wanna remember is, you know, when you're dealing with s- something like financial crimes and cy- a lot of cyber crimes, what you're dealing is actual criminals.

These aren't people that would consider themselves criminals.

[00:18:12] Rik: Right.

[00:18:12] Katelyn: There's nothing in it for them other than an orgasm. They're getting off on it. That is-

[00:18:18] Rik: Yep.

[00:18:18] Katelyn: ... It. So, they're not, not nearly as savvy when it comes-

[00:18:22] Rik: Right.

[00:18:22] Katelyn: ... To that sort of thing. Most of the private forums that we deal with are things like private Facebook groups, or kick groups, or discord. Discord is a huge one.

[00:18:33] Rik: And a recent one, too, right? Discord has kind of mushroomed up relatively recently as a, as a forum in general.

[00:18:39] Katelyn: we've been seeing discord since the inception of BADASS.

[00:18:42] Rik: Really, okay.

[00:18:43] Katelyn: Yeah. There's private discord groups for literally every area of the United States. Like even down to counties in certain places where all they do is share nudes of women without their consent.

[00:18:54] Rik: Wow.

[00:18:56] Katelyn: And-

[00:18:56] Rik: It's incr- you know, it's incredible when you think about, mean, I, I know that nonconsensual porn is an issue. It's not a new issue. And I know that it's an emotional important, global issue.

And that's, y- you know, one of the reasons why I wanted to invite you on to talk about it, 'cause a lot of people might be saying, "Why?" You know, "Why?" because it's important.

And because it's real and because it affects people. And because it has very strong to cyber security in general. That's why, if anybody's wondering.

[00:19:23] Because it's important to me so I wanted us [laughs] to talk about it. But what don't realize when you're, I guess, in the privilege position, of not being exposed to it, because of my gender, because of my age, because of my location.

Who knows? Because of a bunch of reasons. You don't realize how pernicious it is, how widespread it is. And how normalized it's become. Is that a fair comment?

[00:19:46] Katelyn: Absolutely. It is totally normalized. You know, it's ... There are specifi- [inaudible 00:21:02] one, you know, different pornography websites that may, you know, cater to that.

There are, it's, ... The amount of victims is rising. There, the CCRI did a study, and I believe it is one in 12 people in the United-

[00:20:06] Rik: Wow.

[00:20:06] Katelyn: And that's in the United States.

[00:20:08] Rik: Okay.

[00:20:09] Katelyn: in, Australia, it's one in five. Yeah.

[00:20:14] Rik: That's incredible.

[00:20:15] Katelyn: Social media users have dealt with some form of, image-based abuse, whether that's, you know, sextortion, or threatening to share the images, or-

[00:20:23] Rik: Right.

[00:20:24] Katelyn: ... Creating the images, you know, things like deep fakes, deep nudes.

[00:20:27] Rik: Yep.

[00:20:28] Katelyn: We're seeing those become more and more of a threat, you know, people don't realize, you know, they hear revenge porn and they think, "Oh, well, it's an angry ex-boyfriend.”

But they don't realize that there is, it's a fetish. There's an entire subculture of people that are doing this.

[00:20:42] Rik: Incredible.

[00:20:42] Katelyn: And they're harming other people. And it's just going under the radar.

[00:20:48] Rik: There's, there's an interesting, discussion around language. And I know you and I touched on this yesterday, when we had a, a, a offline discussion.

But I wanted to surface it in this forum as well. 'Cause I think it's an important point. Language definitely, from ... I'm a language geek. That's kinda my background. And language definitely is power.

If you control the vocabulary, if you control the conversation, then you exert a, a huge amount of influence about where that conversation goes just by choosing the words that it used, right?

[00:21:13] And I know that in, in the [inaudible 00:22:33] circles and now, much more widely, what used to be called, child pornography isn't called child pornography anymore. And that's a great thing.

Because by calling it pornography, we kinda normalize it, right? And that's absolutely ... Like nonconsensual pornography, it's the kind of thing that shouldn't be normalized, because [laughs] it's not normal. And it's not acceptable.

So, what used to be called CP, child porn, is child online sexual exploitation, which is a much more accurate description of what that is. Now you call on BADASS Army website, and I think, already, in the discussion that we've been having, you call it, nonconsensual porn.

So you, you're not shying away from the word porn or the association with pornography. Wha- Why is that?

[00:21:58] Katelyn: because everybody knows what porn is. And this is really, actually, something that I think is important for the security community as a whole to hear.

You have to, when you're really trying to connect with somebody and make them understand what you're saying, you have to un- you have to speak their language.

[00:22:13] Rik: Right.

[00:22:13] Katelyn: They understand that porn means sexual images. I don't like to use the word porn for this sort of thing because it also implies consent. But, at the same time, it is an ...

To most people, it's an accurate word for what is happening. It's, you know, it's not flowery. It's not perfect. It's much better than saying just revenge porn, because usually revenge is not the motive in this sort of s- thing.

[00:22:41] Rik: Okay.

[00:22:41] Katelyn: and-

[00:22:42] Rik: What's the motive?

[00:22:42] Katelyn: ... I know that there are-

[00:22:43] Rik: Power? Is it, is it more about power? Is it ... If it's not revenge, what is it?

[00:22:47] Katelyn: It is, like I said, it's a fetish. It's about power. It's, a way for somebody to do something without someone's consent. For some people that is away to get off. That's their-

[00:22:58] Rik: Right.

[00:22:58] Katelyn: ... Thing. You know? Another reason is, you know, they just have forgotten that we're people. They see an image and suddenly we're just reduced to a set of tits or an ass, that we're an amalgama of body parts instead of actual human beings with lives and consequences for these sorts of things.

[00:23:17] Rik: Yeah, real consequences, that's kinda the point, isn't it?

[00:23:20] Katelyn: Yeah.

[00:23:20] Rik: so you were talking about the, the initial reaction and then the, the, the steps that, that a victims should go through if, you know, when they discover, if or when they discover that they have become a victim of, of this crime.

One of the things they can do is contact BADASS?

[00:23:32] Katelyn: Oh, absolutely. They can e- e-mail us, they can contact us through any number of, methods. We have a Facebook page, we have a Twitter. We have an Instagram.

And we are happy to help walk them through this process. We also, you know, have a, we've [inaudible 00:25:22] their story out there, find someone that is dealing with the same thing. Which, when this happens to you, it's really easy to feel isolated.

You don't wanna talk about it to anybody, because you don't know if they're gonna look up your image and share it or save it.

[00:24:04] Rik: Yeah, your trust is broken at that point, right? Totally broken, and you, you don't know who you can rely on anymore, I guess.

[00:24:09] Katelyn: Absolutely. Especially if you don't know who uploaded it or who's making these horrible comments about you, or s-

[00:24:16] Rik: Right.

[00:24:16] Katelyn: ... Giving away your full name or workplace. You don't know who these people are, but you feel like you know them. So you don't know who to trust.

The only people that you really can feel comfortable trusting is people that have been through the same thing. We're not gonna continue-

[00:24:30] Rik: Right.

[00:24:30] Katelyn: ... Doing it to each other. We know how awful it feels.

[00:24:34] Rik: And BADASS is, is much more than just a support group, though, right? I mean l- I appreciate that that's a really important element of what you do. But it, it almost does you a disservice to speak about BADASS in those terms because you have no some real experts on board, right?

Can you tell us about the kinds of people that have ... And it's a voluntary association, right? It's a voluntary association of like-minded people, but some of them, some of you have brought significant skills to the table, and to help victims and to help, trace down perpetrators as well.

So who, who's on board? What kind of services, and skills, and what do you offer to people that contact you?

[00:25:11] Katelyn: absolutely. Yeah, we have people, we have resources available, for anybody that should need them. We do have law enforcement that is, within the group that you can talk to.

To give you an idea of what you're gonna need. But, you know, we ha- also have built an incredible core team of people that, you know, we talk every day, all day.

And they have these amazing skills and talents that, are just ... They blow my mind on a daily basis.

[00:25:36] We have, you know, Rachel, who is our COO, she is, you know, she's the most amazing, strong human being. She's the most emotionally strong person I can, I've ever met in my life.

She knows how to stay calm. She knows how to talk to people. She knows how to make you feel like everything's gonna be okay. That's the skill that I wish I had. I'm too blunt.

[00:25:57] Rik: Right.

[00:25:57] Katelyn: And I tend to, curse way too much to have that mothering quality for everybody that needs it.

[00:26:03] Rik: You're, you're doing really well so far, a- avoiding that.

[00:26:06] Katelyn: [laughs].

[00:26:06] Rik: And so am I, actually. So, [laughs] we ...

[00:26:08] Katelyn: [laughs]. And Rachel's amazing at that. We have Callie, she is our, community outreach director but she also handles our HR and the advocacy work that she does, the planning on how we can respond to every victim no matter what is happening, you know, if you need somebody on your side as you go to the police station and make a report, Callie is there.

And trust me, you feel like you've got an entire gang of people with you. Like she is the fiercest, most protective person and it's wonderful. We have Marley, who, you know, the re- one of the reasons with blew up is this amazing marketing that we can do and that's all thanks to Marley. She's a great artist.

[00:26:48] Rik: You have some great merch as well. Is that Marley?

[00:26:50] Katelyn: Yeah. Yeah. She does all of that.

[00:26:51] Rik: Yeah, some of that stuff is amazing on the website.

[00:26:53] Katelyn: Yeah.

[00:26:53] Rik: Really good.

[00:26:53] Katelyn: [crosstalk 00:28:35] great.

[00:26:54] Rik: Dress like a BADASS, right?

[00:26:55] Katelyn: Oh, yeah. She's a total BADASS. You know? And we have Marley [00:27:00] doing that. We have Kate, who is our legal representative. She's there to a- answer any questions free of charge, give you some advice.

She has taken on some cases pro bono. And then she also, you know, offers walk throughs on how to get a protection order, on how to send a DM-

[00:27:17] Rik: Wow.

[00:27:18] Katelyn: ... CA which is our biggest weapon when it comes to removing-

[00:27:20] Rik: Sure.

[00:27:20] Katelyn: ... Images. And that's huge, just having a lawyer that's willing to work for us. And then-

[00:27:25] Rik: How did you all come together? I mean, is, is, maybe I'm not- [crosstalk 00:29:12]

[00:27:27] Katelyn: Well- [crosstalk 00:29:12]

[00:27:27] Rik: ... To ask this question, but I don't know. So I'm gonna ask it and you don't have to answer it. Is, is everyone a former victim? Or are some people just like, "I'm, I'm really passionate about this stuff. I wanna be involved."

[00:27:37] Katelyn: all of us have had it affect us in one way or another.

[00:27:40] Rik: Okay.

[00:27:40] Katelyn: Whether we are victims or, like Kate was my, our lawyer. She was my best friend when this happened. And my first-

[00:27:47] Rik: Okay.

[00:27:47] Katelyn: ... Phone call, 'cause she's a lawyer. And she had just graduated from the bar- you know, just graduated law school, passed the bar. She wanted to go be a probate lawyer and do paperwork all day. And well, I kinda-

[00:27:58] Rik: You fixed that.

[00:27:58] Katelyn: ... Changed that-

[00:27:59] Rik: [laughs].

[00:27:59] Katelyn: ... For a little bit. But, yeah. That, that's how it affected her. And we all, each one of us that is a part of BADASS recognizes that it could happen to us. We are all people that are, have, in the past, trusted people.

We've been open about our sexuality, and at any point, if one of them wants to go and turn around, we could, they could do that.

[00:28:21] Rik: Right. You [crosstalk 00:30:11] do-

[00:28:22] Katelyn: We wouldn't probably remember it. But-

[00:28:23] Rik: You write some really incredible blogs. I was reading one, earlier today which I had read before. But I wanted to go back and refresh my memory of that blog because I wanted to bring it up in this conversation.

Because one of the ... And you kind of alluded to this, or maybe directly, even said it earlier on, today, one of the immediate reactions that people get and I know when I've, done interviews with journalists and press before, I remember the, do you remember the big iCloud hack?

What, what became, became known as the fappening, right? Which is-

[00:28:51] Katelyn: Yes.

[00:28:51] Rik: ... Effectively, image abuse, nonconsensual porn, but-

[00:28:54] Katelyn: Oh, absolutely.

[00:28:54] Rik: ... Of celebrities, right?

[00:28:55] Katelyn: Yes.

[00:28:55] Rik: Same thing but the victims happen to be famous. And I remember a lot of the media reaction at the time is, "Well, you shouldn't be taking those photos, particularly if you're famous. What are you, stupid? You, you know, i- if you're famous, you're a target. You shouldn't be doing that."

You wrote a really good blog, I think, called The Science of Victim Blaming.

[00:29:14] Katelyn: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

[00:29:15] Rik: What, what was that reaction about? Why does that happen? And why is it incorrect? Because on the face of it, it's kind of, "If you don't take the pictures, they can't be exposed." That's true. But it's not right. So, what is-

[00:29:28] Katelyn: It's not even true at this point. You know, and I'll get into that in a minute.

[00:29:32] Rik: Okay.

[00:29:32] Katelyn: We'll start with the first part of the question, as to why that happens. And why that happens is, it's A, psychological response.

When you hear something horrible happening to another person, the first thing you wanna do is kinda reassure yourself, "Well, that can't happen to me. I'm somehow smarter. I'm somehow immune to that sort of thing happening."

And so, for a lot of people it is, in their heads, "Well, I don't take those pictures. So that should never be a problem." You know?

[00:29:59] And if they do take those pictures, they'll sit there and they'll reassure themselves, "Well, I never would leave my phone where someone can get it."

Or, "I use great pra- passwords. This is not a problem." and therefore, rather than accept that this is something horrible that happened to another person, at the hands of someone else, it's much easier to point out the differences between yourself and the victim. And-

[00:30:22] Rik: Really interesting.

[00:30:23] Katelyn: ... That is just human nature.

[00:30:25] Rik: Yeah.

[00:30:25] Katelyn: We want to believe that everything happens for a reason. And sometimes, you know, people really wanna believe that that reason is because you did something wrong. It's not that.

You, being, there's nothing wrong with being sexual. There's nothing wrong with trusting another person. There's nothing wrong with allowing yourself to be vulnerable with people.

That's not a crime. That is nothing that should be punished. It-

[00:30:47] Rik: Right.

[00:30:47] Katelyn: ... Comes out of the perpetrator. But, the second part of your question was, you know, what the, ... You know, I bragged yesterday, I can remember, I can do this, really well. But- [crosstalk 00:32:58]

[00:30:59] Rik: We had this conversation yesterday.

[00:30:59] Katelyn: I totally forget what you asked.

[00:30:59] Rik: Katelyn and I were talking yesterday so we could just kind of, 'cause we'd never met and we still have never met, we've just spoken.

We had exactly this conversation yesterday, and I said, I, it always happens to me, particularly if I'm standing on stage giving a presentation and I say, "There are two really important points to consider about this."

And I start elaborating about point one. And by the time I get to the end, and I know there's a point two, I just have no idea what it was. And because of that, I can't remind you what the second half of my question was.

[00:31:22] Katelyn: I remember-

[00:31:23] Rik: I don't remember.

[00:31:23] Katelyn: ... It now, though.

[00:31:24] Rik: Okay, good.

[00:31:24] Katelyn: Okay.

[00:31:24] Rik: See, I gave you the time-

[00:31:26] Katelyn: [laughs].

[00:31:26] Rik: ... And you're back.

[00:31:27] Katelyn: It just takes it a few minutes. You know.

[00:31:29] Rik: Sure.

[00:31:29] Katelyn: but yeah, the question was why was that wrong to do.

[00:31:32] Rik: Yes.

[00:31:33] Katelyn: Well, like I said, it's not, the fact that you trusted somebody, the fact that you were vulnerable, the fact that you were sexual, none of those things are inherently wrong.

They are things that are natural. Your body is natural. It is actually incredibly natural to want to take a picture of it. Look at history. In Greek times, they were putting, boobs on va- on vases. I mean, we've always been obsessed with putting the nude body on, you know, some kind of image.

So there's nothing wrong with any of that. It is natural. Sex is natural. It's how we all got here. But, there is a societal issue with wanting to punish women for sexuality. That is the thing that happens. We've seen it over, and over, and over again.

So that's why it's wrong, because none of that should be on the victim. That is securely on the person that is trying to use that as the weapon.

[00:32:22] Rik: Yep. Especially when it-

[00:32:23] Katelyn: There are not things that-

[00:32:24] Rik: ... Violates the trust.

[00:32:24] Katelyn: ... Could be done. Yes. And s- to the third point of, "Well, I never took those pictures, so this can't happen to me." There's deep news, there's deep fakes. Hell, anybody with Photoshop can make these pictures of you.

[00:32:37] Rik: Yep.

[00:32:37] Katelyn: And if they can't, guess what? They're gonna go find it's somebody that does look like you and claim it as you. We've seen that, the fake news.

[00:32:44] Rik: Yeah, w- We were talking about, when we were doing some futures thinking relatively recently, we were talking about, AI-driven, sextortion.

You know, it's ... 'Cause one of the ... If you're the, the kind of financially motivated attacker that uses sextortion as a tactic, the, one of the highest effort, lowest return part of your scam, is persuading someone to do something that they otherwise wouldn't do in front of the camera, particularly if you don't have a, a preexisting relationship, right? If you-

[00:33:12] Katelyn: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

[00:33:13] Rik: ... Can rely on AI to take care of that for you, and, and, you, you've only gotta look at websites like thispersondoesnotexist.com to look at how far, AI has come in terms of making believable and credible people that have never even been born, to see, you know, how advanced the skills and image manipulation are.

We know that we've already seen suicides as a result of, sextortion, particularly against, younger victims like t- teenage in particular. But not exclusively. If we see an increase, an explosion in fake NCP, we will see an associated increase in deaths.

It's a, it's a crime that has real, real world life changing or life ending consequences, right? This is not a nothing crime. It's why I wanted to talk about it. I kind of get passionate.

[00:34:02] Katelyn: Absolutely. You know, and, it, we see that a lot. One of the things that we had to learn with BADASS, 'cause originally we were just reaching out to victims, we had to learn that it's really important for, you know, anyone that is dealing directly with victims to g- undergo suicide tr- training, suicide response, and that sort of a thing, because it's, it can get really, really heavy.

And even the things that, you know, we see that are minor, you know, most people at this point have gotten, I've heard of this scam, where they e-mail you and they claim that they have, they send you a portion of your password. And-

[00:34:39] Rik: Yep.

[00:34:39] Katelyn: ... Then-

[00:34:39] Rik: I know exactly what you mean. Yep.

[00:34:40] Katelyn: Yes. This is a really common thing, it's been happening for, I wanna say about a year and a half, is when-

[00:34:47] Rik: Yep.

[00:34:47] Katelyn: ... We first started hearing about it.

[00:34:48] Rik: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

[00:34:48] Katelyn: And, you know, we all are well aware of this thing going on. But, we still are getting panicked, crying, upset, hysterical people in crisis mode-

[00:35:01] Rik: Yep.

[00:35:01] Katelyn: ... That are getting these e-mails. And they are panicking. They're buying into it. They have their password. They have obviously filmed them. What else have they filmed them doing?

[00:35:10] Rik: Yeah. [crosstalk 00:37:23]-

[00:35:11] Katelyn: You know, you know. It's incredibly traumatic for a lot of people.

[00:35:16] Rik: Yeah.

[00:35:16] Katelyn: And- [crosstalk 00:37:29]

[00:35:16] Rik: I've been directly contacted by people who have received that mail. Some of them are even, professionals within the industry.

Because when it, when it happens to you, you, f- you might have all the training in the world and all the good sense, and all the common sense that you should be able to spot a scam from a mile off, but, if you feel like it could be real, very often your judgment comes out on z- you know, errs on the side of, "Oh my God, it's real. "

[00:35:39] Katelyn: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

[00:35:39] Rik: "What am I gonna do next?" And that, the social engineering, I mean, online criminals are good social engineers, great social engineers, sometimes.

That's how a lot of their attacks work. That's the underpinnings of the attack. So, yeah, absolutely, it does have a, an emotional response. We have a, we have a question, that came in online from, from David and actually it's something I wanted to ask you about as well.

BADASS obviously was born, born in the USA. Are you exclusively U.S.?

[00:36:04] Katelyn: No.

[00:36:04] Rik: Or do you have global remix now?

[00:36:04] Katelyn: We do have a global reach at this point. We have a big, you know, a lot of, we have a lot of victims that are in Norway. We have a ton in the UK, Canada, you know, even over in Asia and Africa-

[00:36:20] Rik: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

[00:36:20] Katelyn: ... We started, you know, seeing more and more victims. We have a big, you know, grouping in Australia. We're everywhere.

[00:36:27] Rik: Do you think it's a problem that's growing?

[00:36:28] Katelyn: Absolutely. I think-

[00:36:30] Rik: Yeah?

[00:36:30] Katelyn: ... Especially with things like this, like, quarantine. You know, people are still horny. They're still s- you know, finding ways to, you know, foster-

[00:36:38] Rik: Right.

[00:36:38] Katelyn: ... Relationships and online-

[00:36:39] Rik: Yep.

[00:36:39] Katelyn: ... Dating. They're still t- in fact, I think there are probably more nudes being sent nowadays, way more nudes being sent [laughs] these days, than there-

[00:36:48] Rik: Yep.

[00:36:49] Katelyn: ... Have been, ever. So-

[00:36:50] Rik: You know, I hadn't, hadn't considered that. But a lockdown, you're absolutely right. Must have had a real sort of inflationary effect on that because people are forcibly separated, and they're finding ways around it, right?

[00:36:59] Katelyn: Exactly. We are f- the- relying on technology more and more to foster and to continue relationships. So, as that's happening, more and more people are putting that personal data out there.

And they're creating it. And so, I see it as becoming more and more of an issue. I've also noticed a trend of it happening younger and younger.

[00:37:20] Rik: Hm.

[00:37:20] Katelyn: As more and more kids are getting online earlier, you know, and finding ways to connect with each other, maybe not through Facebook, 'cause apparently this is for ol- you know, that's-

[00:37:28] Rik: That's old people.

[00:37:29] Katelyn: ... Old folk.

[00:37:30] Rik: Yeah, that's for old people. Yeah.

[00:37:31] Katelyn: Yeah.

[00:37:32] Rik: That's grandparents' medium.

[00:37:33] Katelyn: They're using TikToks, or they're using Finstas which are secret Instagram accounts to connect with one another. And we're seeing this issue.

You know, we have ... Gosh, it happens so frequently, I almost wanna say daily, that we have a parent messaging us talking about some stuff they found-

[00:37:51] Rik: Okay.

[00:37:51] Katelyn: ... On their kids' phone.

[00:37:52] Rik: So you're there to help parents as well? Or you would say-

[00:37:56] Katelyn: Yes.

[00:37:56] Rik: "Mm, I want your kid to contact us."

[00:37:59] Katelyn: I do my best to talk to both of them. 'Cause-

[00:38:02] Rik: Right.

[00:38:02] Katelyn: I think how parents handle it is really important.

[00:38:05] Rik: It's critical, yeah.

[00:38:05] Katelyn: 'cause you don't wanna sit there, you don't wanna shame your kid for natural things. But at the same time, you definitely wanna express to them how dangerous this is.

You want to look into, you know, are they being groomed? Has some abuse happened? What is-

[00:38:18] Rik: Yeah.

[00:38:19] Katelyn: ... Happening?

[00:38:20] Rik: Yeah, and I know, as a, as a parent, one of your first reactions, if you're not careful, can definitely be, "Oh my God. What have you done?"

[00:38:26] Katelyn: Yes.

[00:38:27] Rik: But it's not about what you've done, right? It's about what someone else has done.

[00:38:31] Katelyn: Yes, absolutely. And we see that a lot. And that's one thing that I think is really important. Having support, for your par- from your parents when this sort of things happens is huge.

[00:38:41] Rik: Yeah.

[00:38:41] Katelyn: Heck, when I was 30 years old and I had to call and tell my mom, 'cause somebody listed ... What happened to me, I was a bartender, and my other, I have three brothers. And they were all bartenders in the same area-

[00:38:54] Rik: Right.

[00:38:54] Katelyn: ... Of downtown. And somebody listed them near my photos, talking about, "I wonder if they've seen [00:39:00] these?" so I had to make that incredibly uncomfortable phone call.

[00:39:04] Rik: Yep.

[00:39:04] Katelyn: and you know what? My mom, she res- her response was not to be angry at me. She immediately called our senator. And she talked to him for three hours.

She knew nothing about my situation, what website they were on. She called, talked to the senator for hours. She called the FBI. She had nothing to give them other than, "This person did this to my daughter."

[00:39:23] Rik: Right.

[00:39:23] Katelyn: But she was so angry on my behalf, it was really ... It was refreshing to see that. And I ha- if I didn't have that support, I don't know that I would have gotten this far. So I really wanna encourage parents to be supportive of their kids when this happens.

[00:39:38] Rik: They're a key part of the bounce back. How do you bounce back? How long does it take? It, I mean, do you ever bounce back?

[00:39:45] Katelyn: this, the issue with image-based abuse is it's, you know, with a lot of abuse cases, you know, other, especially when it comes down to, other forms of sexual abuse, it usually is a, you know, it happens and then it's done.

And then you have to deal with the healing and slowly, with time, things get better. But, when it, we're talking about the internet. The internet never forgets. It-

[00:40:08] Rik: Yeah.

[00:40:08] Katelyn: Y- You can get images down as many times as you need to, and they still are gonna get reposted and shared. Especially if these guys realize that you're doing it.

Or that you're getting them down. So, the minute that you think that you're okay with it, they go back up. And it's always some time that's inconvenient, I just- [crosstalk 00:42:56]

[00:40:27] Rik: Would it ever be convenient? [laughs]. Yeah.

[00:40:29] Katelyn: Yeah. Well, w- there's always-

[00:40:30] Rik: There's never a good time, yeah.

[00:40:32] Katelyn: Yeah, there's never a great time. But, you know, eventually, you just kinda come to this ter- this form of acceptance and you stop feeling nearly as ashamed.

And I know that one of the biggest things that we help victims overcome, the biggest hurdle to healing is the helplessness.

[00:40:48] Rik: Right.

[00:40:49] Katelyn: We don't, they're not as helpless anymore. They're not, they're not a victim, they're a BADASS. So-

[00:40:53] Rik: So what-

[00:40:54] Katelyn: ... That kinda-

[00:40:54] Rik: What [crosstalk 00:43:23] do you give them?

[00:40:56] Katelyn: Well, we teach them how to get their own images down. We teach them how to start sending their own DMCAs.

We make sure that they are aware of what, the legalities are in their area, what their, options are for criminal or civil prosecutions.

[00:41:09] Rik: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

[00:41:09] Katelyn: we also give them a platform, they wanna write about their story. They want to talk about it. They want to name who shared their pictures. We give them those options.

[00:41:18] Rik: Right.

[00:41:18] Katelyn: And that makes you feel a lot less hopeless. You know-

[00:41:22] Rik: And you would- [crosstalk 00:43:53]

[00:41:23] Katelyn: ... It doesn't-

[00:41:23] Rik: ... Get, the legality of what, some things they might wanna do, might not be advisable, and you'll help them avoid those pitfalls, too? Or-

[00:41:30] Katelyn: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Some things, you know, some people want to go and share their ex's pictures in response. You know?

[00:41:38] Rik: Right.

[00:41:38] Katelyn: Obviously, we don't encourage that. And we also give them, you know, it's ... Okay, when you're walking through the woods and it's all scary, and you're all by yourself. It's re- It can be really scary, you know what I mean?

But when you're with a bunch of friends, when you're not doing things alone, it doesn't feel as scary. You're safe.

[00:41:55] Rik: Speaking of with a bunch of friends, you've had that kinda parallel journey as well, i- 'cause like I said, it's relatively recent, 2017 isn't ancient history yet.

And part of your journey from the inception of BADASS to where you're at now has been the discovery of, and you, I think you called it The Adoption, [laughs], by, the online security community as well, right?

That's, some- That's a community of people that you had no involvement with before. And now you're kind of deeply embedded part of that community building that sort of, your own little village. How, how has that been?

'Cause you, you've described yourself now as a, a maker, as a social engineer, as well as doing all of the BADASS stuff. So you're obviously uncovering new strings to your own bow, he said with a mixed metaphor. [

[00:42:41] Katelyn: laughs].

[00:42:41] Rik: ... All the time. Is that ha- How's that?

[00:42:44] Katelyn: Well, it, it's, it's an experience, let me [laughs] tell you. Honestly, a lot of this stuff, I've been doing it forever. I was a bartender. So social engineering kinda comes naturally.

[00:42:53] Rik: Yeah.

[00:42:53] Katelyn: That's just what you do when you're bartending. And I've always been a maker. But before I just kinda called it a Pinterest Mom.

[00:42:59] Rik: Yeah.

[00:42:59] Katelyn: And you know, I'm just learning that there are official sounding names for the things that I have been doing. I think it's really awesome to get to know all of these great people that are working in the industry.

I'm learning things that I had no idea about. People have been, you know, I get ... For every negative thing that I hear about how I'm not, you know, extremely technical or not qualified, you know, there's been dozens and dozens of wonderful things that are people that understand that there was a gap that needed to be filled.

There's a role that need to be played for this community. Somebody needed to be in there to remind ya'll about how the users were feeling.

[00:43:38] Rik: Yeah.

[00:43:38] Katelyn: the terrible things that can happen when technology is being abused and the ways that we as a community can prevent these things from happening.

And the biggest one is gonna be education and reaching a user in a way that they understand and are listening to. Most people start droning off the minute you start talking about online safety. And-

[00:43:57] Rik: Yeah.

[00:43:57] Katelyn: ... We started, you know, discussing, you know, which operating system is gonna be better, and you know, pass, you know, password managers, and people just zone out.

So we have to find a way to reach users that are, they're gonna pay attention and start making our jobs easier.

[00:44:14] Rik: I think you're right. I mean, there's a huge element within cyber in general, of preaching to the choir, right? Of, of, you, you're having conversations, sometimes in a giant echo chamber, sometimes they turn into a huge online emotional arguments with people who are pulled apart.

But it's still within in a really close community and trying to break out of that is, is really difficult. Your, BADASS as an organization, is that the only organization in the world that does this kind of thing?

Or are there other, other resources that you would encourage people to, to reach out for, investigation, get involved with?

[00:44:47] Katelyn: there are some amazing resources out there. There's the Cyber Civil Rights Initiative, which they focus more on legislation.

But they do help with victims and getting them hooked up with, you know, some legal representation. And that's run by some amazing women that I look up to so much.

You know, same with, you know, there's some, you know, great, great legal groups that are doing some things about it. We have, you know, Lisa Damico, here in the U.S., that's doing some great things.

We have, Ann ... Why am I blanking? Ann ... Words. Words are hard. [laughs]. Ann Olivarius she's in the, UK, that is doing some wonderful things. They're UK. They also have the, the Revenge Porn Hotline.

[00:45:27] Rik: Okay.

[00:45:27] Katelyn: In Australia there are some, wonderful government-funded organizations doing some great things. I mean, I'm just consistently impressed with the other organizations, yeah, that are doing this sort of work, and what they have accomplished.

We are brand new. And we just kinda came in guns blazing, taking up all the space. But there are organizations out there that are doing things, different things, and they're doing them better than we could ever hope to.

So, one of the things that I know that I talked to you about yesterday is we have kind of stepped back for a little bit and taken a break. We've worked on- [crosstalk 00:48:55]

[00:46:03] Rik: Yeah, you announced it on Twitter, right? You, you put a Tweet out there-

[00:46:06] Katelyn: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

[00:46:06] Rik: ... That said, "We're taking a break." I think a lot of people were surprised.

[00:46:10] Katelyn: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

[00:46:10] Rik: Maybe some people were concerned. What's the backstory? What's the purpose? When's the comeback? When are you doing the world tour? All that kinda stuff.

[00:46:17] Katelyn: [laughs]. Well, the comeback is coming back very soon. We are, already, roll- getting everything ready to go. And the reason we needed to take the break is we've been running our asses off for the past two and a half years, since 2017, or three years. Gosh.

[00:46:34] Rik: It-

[00:46:34] Katelyn: Time. Who needs it?

[00:46:35] Rik: Time [inaudible 00:49:29] are difficult.

[00:46:36] Katelyn: [laughs]. We really have. I mean, we ex- I made a Facebook group. That's how this all started. And then suddenly it became this huge thing.

And it has been a 90 hour a week position. And it's hard work, talking [crosstalk 00:49:42] and-

[00:46:49] Rik: And you've had your foot on the gas all the way through, you effectively, just kinda holding on [laughs] to the wheel, and going, "Oh!"

[00:46:53] Katelyn: A- Absolutely. And you know what? Honestly, we were all burned out. We were all broken. We needed extra help, we didn't know how to even start accepting volunteers, how to vet them properly.

We had no systems in place because we were figuring it out as we were going along. We also were doing everything.

We were working on, you know, "How do we get this law in place? And how do we do this? And how do we do that? We gotta work on this website. We gotta train these police officers."

We're ... We were doing everything.

[00:47:22] But we realized that there are so many other organizations out there doing some amazing work. And they're better at it than us. Why are we trying to, you know, tell lawmakers how to, hm, make this work when CCRI actually understands how to write laws.

So, we are more gonna take a step back on certain things, create our focus, which is going to be more on the tech and cyber side. As well as the victim's side, and we are, kinda regrouping.

We needed a break when COVID hit, it was the straw that broke the camel's back for a lot of us.

[00:47:52] Rik: Yeah.

[00:47:52] Katelyn: We were done. We needed a break. We needed a minute. There was too much stress.

We, we were broken. Not to mention, we felt like we needed to do something about the situation that, currently at hand, like with me with my masks, and Callie with organizing how to get groceries to, people that aren't supposed to be le- that are quarantining.

[00:48:12] Rik: Right.

[00:48:12] Katelyn: So-

[00:48:12] Rik: So you had plenty of other things to deal with and things to focus on, as well as personal issues, I'm sure. You know, everyone has a personal life, too.

And they've got stuff to deal with. There, there's a question came in on Periscope, and I, this mi- might be a part of the comeback or it might be something that's already out there.

Somebody wants to know where they can go to, to get a list of resources.

[00:48:32] Katelyn: That's part, gonna be, part of our website, once we, you know-

[00:48:36] Rik: Once really want- [crosstalk 00:51:37]

[00:48:36] Katelyn: ... Have it [crosstalk 00:51:37] up and running. Our website was currently undergoing construction, [crosstalk 00:51:41]

[00:48:40] Rik: What is the URL for that right now?

[00:48:41] Katelyn: Oh, it is badassarmy.org.

[00:48:43] Rik: Okay. Badassarmy.org. And I guess that's not gonna change, right?

[00:48:46] Katelyn: No.

[00:48:47] Rik: The, the domain stays the same. Just a new website under construction.

[00:48:50] Katelyn: Yeah. We're gonna be doing a rebranding, a refocusing. We're gonna ... We have some really cool things we are unveiling.

I don't wanna make any sort of announcements but Rachel and, Timmy, who is our, up and coming C- CSO, he is, kicking ass, and both of them have done some ... I, I can't even talk about it. 'cause it's really cool, and that's gonna be theirs to unveil. But-

[00:49:13] Rik: What are we talking, a week? Two weeks? A month?

[00:49:15] Katelyn: Yeah, it's, it'll be a couple weeks. But, i-, once everything's up and running, y'all are just gonna be really-

[00:49:21] Rik: Excellent.

[00:49:22] Katelyn: ... Psyched.

[00:49:22] Rik: Looking forward.

[00:49:22] Katelyn: We're trying some new things that haven't been tried before.

[00:49:26] Rik: We're coming up on, on the hour. But these things just fly by. I have, I'm always [laughs] nervous, like, "Oh, we, we're only gonna make 20 minutes."

We've been coming up on the hour again. This is the third time we've come close to an hour. I- One of the things that I wanted to make sure that I got in there as a question, is obviously, it's been a problem since time immemorial, it's just something that's ha- happening through new media.

A, as, as, image consumption and media consumption habits change over time. Is it a problem that we're ever going to get a handle on and diminish?

Or is it something that we have to give people the skill to deal with? Or a bit of both?

[00:50:01] Katelyn: I think-

[00:50:02] Rik: Where, where are you on that?

[00:50:03] Katelyn: I think it's a mixture of both. I think in order for this to really stop becoming an issue, i- societal change needs to happen, where we stop viewing sex and sexuality as being some necessarily shameful.

If it's not something that can be used against someone else, then, you know, people were gonna stop using it as a weapon. And, I think that is a very longterm, lofty goal.

And so I'm pretty realistic in the fact that, you know, this is something that is s- eh, something we're gonna have to more work on how to t- teach victims how to handle it, and-

[00:50:37] Rik: Right.

[00:50:37] Katelyn: ... Get them through the situation. But eventually, yeah. I think that's important to change as a society. I don't think that ... I mean, but that, like I said, that's a whole, big change.

[00:50:49] Rik: Yeah.

[00:50:49] Katelyn: That is not going to happen-

[00:50:50] Rik: That's a pretty lofty goal, right? No, it's a worthy one.

[00:50:53] Katelyn: yeah. But-

[00:50:53] Rik: But it's a, but it's a pretty lofty one, for sure.

[00:50:55] Katelyn: Yeah, but, you know what? You know, I'm seeing up and coming generations of, you know, these people that r- are kids, but they're coming out and changing the world already.

[00:51:05] Rik: Yeah.

[00:51:05] Katelyn: I see, I see some good things happening in the future, and I am really hopefully.

[00:51:10] Rik: That's, that's great. Katelyn, thank you so much for, for joining us. It's been, like I said, the conversation has just flown by, the time has just flown by.

I don't think it was mostly me talking. I'm pretty sure it was mostly you. And that's the name-

[00:51:21] Katelyn: And I talk-

[00:51:22] Rik: ... Of the game.

[00:51:22] Katelyn: ... A lot. I'm sorry. [laughs].

[00:51:23] Rik: But I'm, I'm d- I'm totally happy with that. Where can people get in contact with you? I know you've given us badassarmy.org, that's great.

[00:51:29] Katelyn: Yeah.

[00:51:29] Rik: I am cheeky, so I always put my Twitter handle, down there, duh.

[00:51:33] Katelyn: [laughs].

[00:51:34] Rik: you just put your name down there. So if people wanna connect with you, where's that?

[00:51:37] Katelyn: you can connect with me on Twitter @BadassBowden, or you can e-mail me, katelyn@badassarmy.org. I'm much easier, probably, to get ahold of on Twitter.

I'm on there all the time. Probably too much. But, yeah. That's the easiest way to get in contact with me.

[00:51:53] Rik: That's, i- that's amazing. It's been a, it's been a really interesting conversation. I hope, one day when the world begins to return to something slightly more approaching normality, we can get a chance to, to meet in person.

I look forward to that day. And I, from the bottom of my heart, thank you very much for, for joining us on #LetsTalkSecurity.

[00:52:10] Katelyn: Well, thank you for having me. I hope everybody is gonna stay safe. And enjoy the sunshine. Enjoy this heat, get outside, Rik.

[00:52:17] Rik: That, well, yeah, I, I've been, it's j- it's roastingly hot here.

[00:52:20] Katelyn: [laughs].

[00:52:20] Rik: I'm hiding in my office today.

[00:52:23] Katelyn: Aw.

[00:52:23] Rik: Thanks so much Katelyn.

[00:52:26] Katelyn: All right. Bye. Thanks.

[00:52:26] Rik: Bye-bye. There you go. Another, another [laughs] hour long episode. I'm not sure that Trend Micro wanted me to go on for an hour. This is the third time I've done it.

I hope you're enjoying these conversations as much as I am. The, the, the lists of guests that, that I approached and everybody I approached has agreed to, to, to be on this show, which is fantastic, are all people that I, admire.

Only a couple of them are people that I have had the chance to meet in person. No one's letting me down. No one's letting us down, or, i- i- the conversations are all varied, all different.

You know, we had t- in the first episode we had Katie Moussouris, last week we spoke to Jayson Street, this week we had Katelyn.

[00:53:05] I have three, maybe four more up my sleeve, for forthcoming episodes for the rest of this season. If you're interested, in talking to me in season two, let me know.

You can find me on Twitter. Drop me a DM or, or Tweet me publicly, whatever. And you wanna come on, have a conversation about something, I would be super pleased to hear from you.

This is #LetsTalkSecurity. We're across the Trend Micro LinkedIn, YouTube, Twitter, and we're on my Twitter as well, it's been a pleasure having you with us.

I've been Ron Burgundy. You stay classy, San Diego. Thanks for joining us.